WEBVTT

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<v Larry King>On Larry King Now,</v>

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the continued fascination with

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Charles Manson and his followers.

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Why are people still so interested almost 50 years later?

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<v ->The myth is that he was a counter-cultural hero.</v>

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The myth is he was an emblematic figure of the 60's

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and Charles Manson was really a convict,

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and a conman and a brutal killer.

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<v Larry King>Most of his followers</v>

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who committed those heinous crimes are still in prison.

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Should they ever get out?

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<v ->No, she's just as evil now as she ever was.</v>

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<v ->You think so?</v>

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<v ->Yes, I know so, I sit...</v>

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<v ->I spoke to the warden who says she's a changed person.</v>

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<v ->In a controlled environment Larry.</v>

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<v Larry King>Plus, Manson follower</v>

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Diane Lake's experience inside the murderous cult.

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<v ->Oh, I was scared out of my mind.</v>

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And didn't feel like I could then run away.

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<v Larry King>We dig into all of that</v>

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and more on Larry King Now.

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(upbeat tempo)

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Welcome to a special edition of Larry King Now.

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Today we're discussing the continued fascination

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with Charles Manson and the horrific murders

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that he orchestrated 50 years ago.

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On the night of August 8th, 1969,

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Charles Manson sent his followers out

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in Benedict Canyon in Los Angeles,

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the home of actress, Sharon Tate,

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the wife of Director, Roman Polanski.

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She was eight months pregnant

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with the couple's first child.

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Manson instructed four of his

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family members to kill everybody inside.

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Sharon Tate and three other occupants

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were brutally murdered, as well as a student

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who was visiting the guest house that night.

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And Manson's followers quickly struck again the next night.

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This time, the victims were Leno and Rosemary LaBianca.

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Manson accompanied his followers at the LaBianca home

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where the couple were brutally stabbed to death.

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The news of the killings put Los Angeles

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into a state of terror with headlines fueling the fire.

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Manson, who was once an aspiring musician,

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believed he was a Messiah and

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had his followers completely enraptured.

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It took police almost five months

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to figure out who did it, mostly because

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they didn't think the two incidents were connected.

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In the end, all the people responsible

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were found guilty and sentenced to death.

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In 1972, the death penalty was abolished in California

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and everybody, including Manson himself,

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were given life sentences.

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Manson, who died 10 months ago,

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remains a popular subject of

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Hollywood films and documentaries.

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Quentin Tarantino is said to direct

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Once Upon A Time In Hollywood.

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Fox is also running a two hour, true crime special

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called Inside The Manson Cult: The Lost Tapes.

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That will air September 17th on Fox.

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Joining me now in studio is Diane Lake.

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A former Manson cult member who was at Spahn Ranch

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during the time of the brutal murders.

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She will appear on the Fox special.

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You did not go to the murders right?

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<v ->No.</v>

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<v ->What, you were 14 at the time,</v>

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what attracted you to this?

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<v ->He totally captured my imagination</v>

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and at a time where I had been sort of

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disenfranchised by my family and then

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the commune that they were now living in.

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When I met Charlie and the girls,

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they totally embraced me and Dr. Phil

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referred to it as love bombing.

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So he totally showered me with love and affection,

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and I felt like I belonged.

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<v ->And what was life like at the ranch?</v>

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What did they do all day?

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What did you do?

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<v ->Life survival, you know?</v>

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Sleeping, eating, finding food,

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taking care of children, cleaning.

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<v ->Was it religious in nature?</v>

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It was certainly a cult.

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<v ->Yes, it was definitely a cult</v>

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and I think Charlie really did believe

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that he was a coming Messiah.

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<v ->Were you happy there?</v>

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<v ->Some of the time.</v>

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Most of the time, I tried to be.

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You know, I tried to be happy.

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I think I was always looking for that initial love bomb.

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You know, that initial feeling of euphoria

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that I was loved and adored and belonged there.

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<v ->Were you in love with Charlie?</v>

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<v ->For a time.</v>

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<v ->Had sex with Charlie?</v>

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<v ->Yes.</v>

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<v ->Fox is gonna release this special on September 17th.</v>

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Was it hard to look at the footage?

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<v ->I haven't seen it yet.</v>

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<v ->You haven't seen it?</v>

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<v ->No.</v>

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They committed me to 90 days

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observation at Patton State Hospital.

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And then the 90 days turned into nine months.

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It was like he was in my head telling me turn left,

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turn right, you know, turn the light off.

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<v ->Manson called you Snake, why?</v>

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<v ->The story of my naming of Snake really emanated from me.</v>

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I had been fasting and it was a hot day,

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and I had just imagined what it would be like

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to be a snake, slithering through the tall, cool grass.

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And I reiterated this story to the girls,

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and from then on, my Moniker was Snake.

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<v ->How many girls were there?</v>

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<v ->When I first joined, there were five others.</v>

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<v ->And did they grow?</v>

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<v ->Yes, we did accumulate more members, both men and women.</v>

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<v ->Alright, on the night of the murder,</v>

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where were you when they went out?

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<v ->I was at Spahn Ranch.</v>

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<v ->Why didn't you go with them?</v>

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<v ->I had no idea they were going.</v>

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<v ->They didn't ask you to go?</v>

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<v ->No.</v>

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<v ->You're lucky.</v>

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<v ->Fortunate, very fortunate.</v>

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<v ->When did you find out what happened?</v>

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<v ->I didn't find out until we were</v>

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in Olancha, on our way to Death Valley.

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Tex told me.

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<v ->How did you react when you heard what happened?</v>

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<v ->Oh, I was scared out of my mind</v>

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and didn't feel like I could then run away.

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Because Olancha is a very isolated little pit stop on 395.

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So, I was really scared.

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Then I was also shocked that they

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could've done something like that.

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<v ->So you never would had no idea</v>

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that they would murder people?

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<v ->No.</v>

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<v ->They never discussed that in any?</v>

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<v ->There was some talk about were you willing to kill,</v>

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in order to not be killed and so

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I thought of it as kind of a defensive posture.

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I really didn't think that that's what we were becoming.

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<v ->You were never implicated in the murders?</v>

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<v ->No.</v>

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<v ->Did you do any jail time?</v>

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<v ->I did because I didn't tell them my real name or my age.</v>

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And so, I was in jail for a time

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until we had to appear before the grand jury in Los Angeles.

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And that was the first time and that was in December,

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that was the first time that I had been able to say

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my name is Diane Lake, I'm 16, and I want my mommy.

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And I did, you know?

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I had really come to my senses at that point

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and I felt that was the first time I felt safe enough

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because I had been in a jail cell

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in Inyo County with the girls.

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<v ->Did you testify at the trial?</v>

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<v ->Yes I did.</v>

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<v ->Was that hard?</v>

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<v ->Yes.</v>

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<v ->Charlie was sitting there right?</v>

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<v ->Yes.</v>

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<v ->Did he stare at you?</v>

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<v ->He did stare at me.</v>

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<v ->Was it hard to look at him in court?</v>

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<v ->Yes, I was very scared.</v>

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And what I was afraid of was that

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he was going to have a hold on me.

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That he was going to get into my brain and make me

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say something that wasn't true.

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<v ->After the break, Diane talks about</v>

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why she participated in the Fox special

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and we'll find out what she wants

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people to know about Charles Manson.

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We'll be right back.

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(upbeat tempo)

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We're back with Diane Lake.

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50 years huh?

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You've been married, widow,

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and remarried, have grown children.

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<v ->Yes.</v>

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<v ->Do you still think about it?</v>

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<v ->It was a pretty guarded secret</v>

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until about 2009 and then I,

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my children didn't know, my husband knew,

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but my children didn't know.

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And then, Paul Dostie has a Cadaver Dog

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and he called me up one day to let me know

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that he had permission to dig for bodies

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at Barker Ranch because his dog

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had alerted to human remains.

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And if they did find bodies,

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that it was all gonna open up again

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and I was gonna be you know, in the media about it.

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And so my husband and I decided

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we needed to tell the kids cause

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I didn't want them to find out from a big media blitz.

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So that was kind of the first crack

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and then after my husband died a few years ago,

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I had this epiphany that now was the time to write my story.

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And the process of writing my story, it was very cathartic

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because I hadn't really read the books, you know?

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I heard about the parole hearings and what not,

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but that was really a closed part of my life.

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It was like I had this other little person

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with this black cloud and I didn't

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want to be associated with it.

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But since then, writing the book,

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everything fell into place,

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and I feel like a whole person now.

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<v ->Yeah.</v>

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<v ->I can come out of the closet</v>

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and it's been a good experience.

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<v ->What did Charles Manson have?</v>

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<v ->He had this incredible, playful,</v>

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believe it or not, charisma.

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And he could become any multitude of people.

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He showed me one night in the mirror,

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on acid, but he showed me

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all these different people that he could become,

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just by changing his facial expression.

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And he tried to instill that in us,

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that we were to, you met somebody,

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you were to become the person that they needed.

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<v ->Chameleon.</v>

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<v ->Like, he was very much a chameleon.</v>

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And he prided himself on that

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and I think that is why he was

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able to garner so much devotion.

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And then I think he kind of started to

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believe his own delusion, that he was Christ come again.

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He'd reiterate man, son, and I think that

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he just got, I think he had a psychotic delusion

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and he drew a lot of us in there with him.

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<v ->Why did he want his followers to kill people?</v>

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I mean, there are other heads of cults

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that don't have their followers kill people.

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<v ->Right.</v>

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I'm not, I don't think it started that way.

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I just think that through his upbringing,

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and the people that he had been exposed to,

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he had this idea that there was going to be

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this black, white race war.

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That the black man was gonna

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rise up over the white people.

256
00:12:49.070 --> 00:12:50.230
From my understanding, this is

257
00:12:50.230 --> 00:12:52.430
what he had learned when he was in prison.

258
00:12:52.430 --> 00:12:54.920
And so, it just kinda, you know, with acid,

259
00:12:54.920 --> 00:12:59.920
and you know, the 60's, and then The White Album came out,

260
00:13:00.600 --> 00:13:03.740
it just all kind of rolled into one

261
00:13:03.740 --> 00:13:08.033
that this was Helter Skelter and that he was in it.

262
00:13:09.780 --> 00:13:12.260
<v ->Do you feel a lot of sadness for the families</v>

263
00:13:12.260 --> 00:13:13.277
of the people who were murdered?

264
00:13:13.277 --> 00:13:15.030
<v ->Oh, it breaks my heart.</v>

265
00:13:15.030 --> 00:13:19.055
And especially, every time a person

266
00:13:19.055 --> 00:13:22.580
that's in jail for these murders is paroled,

267
00:13:22.580 --> 00:13:24.640
they have to relive and it's gone

268
00:13:24.640 --> 00:13:26.890
from the parents going to the parole,

269
00:13:26.890 --> 00:13:30.410
to the brothers, the sisters, the aunts, the uncles,

270
00:13:30.410 --> 00:13:35.410
the nephews, it breaks my heart, it really does, yes.

271
00:13:36.330 --> 00:13:37.780
<v ->Why did you agree to be on?</v>

272
00:13:38.810 --> 00:13:42.143
<v ->It seems like it was time.</v>

273
00:13:44.400 --> 00:13:48.180
From what most people are saying, I was there.

274
00:13:48.180 --> 00:13:51.363
A lot of other people that have things to say weren't there.

275
00:13:52.890 --> 00:13:57.283
So I guess I had a fresh perspective.

276
00:13:59.782 --> 00:14:02.310
<v ->Been looking forward to this Diane, thank you so much.</v>

277
00:14:02.310 --> 00:14:03.390
<v ->Thank you.</v>

278
00:14:03.390 --> 00:14:07.020
<v ->After the break, Sharon Tate's sister Debra Tate,</v>

279
00:14:07.020 --> 00:14:11.140
joins us to talk about the upcoming Hollywood Manson film

280
00:14:11.140 --> 00:14:15.130
and what she wants people to remember about her sister.

281
00:14:15.130 --> 00:14:19.290
And Investigative Journalist, Steve Oney joins Debra

282
00:14:19.290 --> 00:14:23.833
to discuss the continued fascination about Charles Manson.

283
00:14:25.930 --> 00:14:27.720
(upbeat tempo)

284
00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:29.250
Welcome back to Larry King Now.

285
00:14:29.250 --> 00:14:31.660
Our conversation about Charles Manson

286
00:14:31.660 --> 00:14:33.860
and the tragic murders he orchestrated

287
00:14:33.860 --> 00:14:37.060
almost 50 years ago continues.

288
00:14:37.060 --> 00:14:39.010
I'm joined now by Debra Tate,

289
00:14:39.010 --> 00:14:41.370
the sister of the late Sharon Tate,

290
00:14:41.370 --> 00:14:43.750
who was one of Manson's victims.

291
00:14:43.750 --> 00:14:47.650
Debra has continued to advocate for victim's rights

292
00:14:47.650 --> 00:14:50.170
and speaks out about the exploit of coverage

293
00:14:50.170 --> 00:14:52.370
of her sister and the other victims.

294
00:14:52.370 --> 00:14:55.820
Also joining us is journalist and author, Steve Oney.

295
00:14:55.820 --> 00:14:58.500
He wrote an oral history of the Manson murders

296
00:14:58.500 --> 00:15:01.170
for L.A. Magazine and has talked to

297
00:15:01.170 --> 00:15:04.960
almost everyone involved in the investigation.

298
00:15:04.960 --> 00:15:07.200
They both join me here in studio.

299
00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:10.000
Debra, you were how old when your sister was killed?

300
00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:10.833
<v ->16.</v>

301
00:15:10.833 --> 00:15:12.430
<v ->Where were you that night?</v>

302
00:15:12.430 --> 00:15:17.090
<v ->That night I was at our family home in Palace Verdes.</v>

303
00:15:17.090 --> 00:15:20.010
I was actually supposed to be at the house that night,

304
00:15:20.010 --> 00:15:21.750
but Sharon said it was too hot

305
00:15:21.750 --> 00:15:25.253
and too sticky to receive guests.

306
00:15:25.253 --> 00:15:26.650
<v ->Were you close with your sister?</v>

307
00:15:26.650 --> 00:15:28.620
<v ->So very, very close.</v>

308
00:15:28.620 --> 00:15:30.470
<v ->And she was almost gonna have a baby right?</v>

309
00:15:30.470 --> 00:15:33.390
<v Debra>She was just a week or two away.</v>

310
00:15:33.390 --> 00:15:36.730
<v Larry>How did you hear about the tragedy?</v>

311
00:15:36.730 --> 00:15:40.030
<v ->Actually, my boyfriend at the time,</v>

312
00:15:40.030 --> 00:15:42.410
called my mother's home.

313
00:15:42.410 --> 00:15:45.660
We had just returned to Palace Verdes from Sausalito,

314
00:15:45.660 --> 00:15:47.440
my father was in the military,

315
00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:50.713
so we were in yet another move.

316
00:15:52.509 --> 00:15:56.210
Mom and I were unpacking all of the belongings

317
00:15:56.210 --> 00:15:59.550
and Wayne had heard it on a radio station

318
00:15:59.550 --> 00:16:02.860
and called the home saying that he was sorry,

319
00:16:02.860 --> 00:16:05.670
he had heard Sharon had perished in a fire.

320
00:16:05.670 --> 00:16:07.020
<v ->Who told you, her mother?</v>

321
00:16:08.192 --> 00:16:09.770
<v ->No, he told my mother and then</v>

322
00:16:09.770 --> 00:16:11.880
my mother came down the hall.

323
00:16:11.880 --> 00:16:13.700
I happened to have been in the shower

324
00:16:13.700 --> 00:16:17.510
and she was falling apart and

325
00:16:17.510 --> 00:16:21.763
slung the door open and said Sharon's dead.

326
00:16:22.768 --> 00:16:24.553
<v ->He thought she perished in a fire?</v>

327
00:16:24.553 --> 00:16:29.553
<v ->In a fire, that's what the original radio blurb was.</v>

328
00:16:29.850 --> 00:16:31.740
<v ->So when you found out the real story,</v>

329
00:16:31.740 --> 00:16:33.728
were you totally shocked?

330
00:16:33.728 --> 00:16:34.561
(exhales)

331
00:16:34.561 --> 00:16:35.680
<v ->It was unbelievable.</v>

332
00:16:35.680 --> 00:16:40.500
It was so surrealistic, it was

333
00:16:40.500 --> 00:16:45.060
incomprehensible at that time, you know?

334
00:16:45.060 --> 00:16:48.120
People didn't break into other people's homes

335
00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:52.050
and take lives in brutal manner for no reason.

336
00:16:52.050 --> 00:16:55.120
Uncalled for, it was a different time,

337
00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:59.820
a time of innocence and so it was pretty inconceivable.

338
00:16:59.820 --> 00:17:03.140
<v ->Steve, what prompted you to do that oral history?</v>

339
00:17:03.140 --> 00:17:04.280
<v ->I did it because it was the</v>

340
00:17:04.280 --> 00:17:06.020
40th anniversary of the murders

341
00:17:06.020 --> 00:17:08.850
and I was an editor at Los Angeles Magazine,

342
00:17:08.850 --> 00:17:11.990
and I felt we had to acknowledge this.

343
00:17:11.990 --> 00:17:14.950
I also knew that many of the principles in the case

344
00:17:14.950 --> 00:17:18.780
were getting old and that if I didn't talk to them then,

345
00:17:18.780 --> 00:17:22.220
they would be dead and that's turned out to be true.

346
00:17:22.220 --> 00:17:24.320
I talked with Vincent Bugliosi

347
00:17:24.320 --> 00:17:26.300
and a couple of the homicide detectives,

348
00:17:26.300 --> 00:17:28.070
Michael McGann and Danny Galindo,

349
00:17:28.070 --> 00:17:29.630
they're all now gone.

350
00:17:29.630 --> 00:17:34.150
So I wanted to get them on record before they left us.

351
00:17:34.150 --> 00:17:35.710
<v ->Interview Manson?</v>

352
00:17:35.710 --> 00:17:38.310
<v ->No, I did not interview Manson.</v>

353
00:17:38.310 --> 00:17:39.660
When you wanna interview someone

354
00:17:39.660 --> 00:17:41.350
in the California correctional system,

355
00:17:41.350 --> 00:17:43.260
you send them a letter by the U.S. mail

356
00:17:43.260 --> 00:17:46.370
and I sent him a letter, dear Mr. Manson.

357
00:17:46.370 --> 00:17:50.090
I did not hear back until I was right on deadline.

358
00:17:50.090 --> 00:17:51.920
The piece was already in type

359
00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:53.830
and I got a phone call from a guy

360
00:17:53.830 --> 00:17:57.290
who identified himself only as Gray Wolf.

361
00:17:57.290 --> 00:18:00.360
So, I spoke to Mr. Wolf and Mr. Wolf told me

362
00:18:00.360 --> 00:18:02.450
he could get me to Mr. Manson

363
00:18:02.450 --> 00:18:04.460
and I didn't know whether I was being pranked

364
00:18:04.460 --> 00:18:05.750
or whether it was for real.

365
00:18:05.750 --> 00:18:08.320
And as I say, the piece was finished,

366
00:18:08.320 --> 00:18:11.220
so because I couldn't verify it, I said no.

367
00:18:11.220 --> 00:18:13.080
Well it turned out, I should've said yes

368
00:18:13.080 --> 00:18:15.380
because a month or so later,

369
00:18:15.380 --> 00:18:17.010
the news broke that Charles Manson

370
00:18:17.010 --> 00:18:19.840
had burner cell phones in his cell

371
00:18:19.840 --> 00:18:21.620
at the Chino Correctional Facility,

372
00:18:21.620 --> 00:18:23.710
so I think Mr. Wolf was for real.

373
00:18:23.710 --> 00:18:24.810
<v ->Do you blame everyone?</v>

374
00:18:24.810 --> 00:18:27.720
Do you blame Diane Lake?

375
00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:30.070
She was 14, she wasn't there at the killings.

376
00:18:30.070 --> 00:18:33.180
<v ->I do not believe her, I know for a fact that's not true.</v>

377
00:18:33.180 --> 00:18:35.230
<v ->So you think she was at the killings?</v>

378
00:18:35.230 --> 00:18:37.190
<v ->Oh, at those killings, no.</v>

379
00:18:37.190 --> 00:18:39.070
She was not at those killings,

380
00:18:39.070 --> 00:18:41.690
but she did know of those killings.

381
00:18:41.690 --> 00:18:46.090
I have recorded testimony from her adopted father

382
00:18:46.090 --> 00:18:50.230
that she had admitted at that time,

383
00:18:50.230 --> 00:18:54.480
that she helped to dig holes so many feet,

384
00:18:54.480 --> 00:18:57.580
in front of Barker Ranch house.

385
00:18:57.580 --> 00:19:01.010
So I don't know if her memory is perhaps selective

386
00:19:01.010 --> 00:19:05.240
and over the years, she erased horrible things

387
00:19:05.240 --> 00:19:07.470
that she saw as a child,

388
00:19:07.470 --> 00:19:09.240
that's most likely the case.

389
00:19:09.240 --> 00:19:12.450
But it's still not the facts.

390
00:19:12.450 --> 00:19:14.453
<v ->How did you react when he died?</v>

391
00:19:15.860 --> 00:19:17.163
<v ->I was the first call.</v>

392
00:19:18.060 --> 00:19:20.100
I was the first person to be notified.

393
00:19:20.100 --> 00:19:22.870
And as I did with Susan Atkins,

394
00:19:22.870 --> 00:19:26.630
I say a prayer for all of these people's souls.

395
00:19:26.630 --> 00:19:29.800
I was raised a Catholic and at that point,

396
00:19:29.800 --> 00:19:33.390
they're no longer a problem to this earth or me,

397
00:19:33.390 --> 00:19:38.390
so I offer forgiveness at that point.

398
00:19:39.220 --> 00:19:40.210
<v ->Didn't you hate him?</v>

399
00:19:40.210 --> 00:19:41.140
<v ->No.</v>

400
00:19:41.140 --> 00:19:42.855
I don't hate any of these people.

401
00:19:42.855 --> 00:19:43.928
<v Larry>Really?</v>

402
00:19:43.928 --> 00:19:46.668
<v ->Hate is a wasted emotion, yeah.</v>

403
00:19:46.668 --> 00:19:50.383
They don't deserve that much emotion out of me.

404
00:19:51.442 --> 00:19:53.210
<v ->Do we know everything?</v>

405
00:19:53.210 --> 00:19:57.217
Are we gonna learn something from movies and the Fox thing?

406
00:19:57.217 --> 00:19:59.660
<v ->No, no we are not going to learn anything.</v>

407
00:19:59.660 --> 00:20:03.210
It's all rehashing the same old stuff.

408
00:20:03.210 --> 00:20:05.855
There is a lot of information

409
00:20:05.855 --> 00:20:08.990
that needs to be told to the public.

410
00:20:08.990 --> 00:20:10.100
There's a lot of stuff that

411
00:20:10.100 --> 00:20:11.580
the public has the right to know.

412
00:20:11.580 --> 00:20:13.010
<v ->Do you agree?</v>

413
00:20:13.010 --> 00:20:14.460
<v ->I agree.</v>

414
00:20:14.460 --> 00:20:18.268
Manson and his family members killed close to 40 people.

415
00:20:18.268 --> 00:20:19.101
<v ->What?</v>

416
00:20:19.101 --> 00:20:20.710
<v ->And we don't know who they all are.</v>

417
00:20:20.710 --> 00:20:23.480
Now some of them, one of the defense attorneys,

418
00:20:23.480 --> 00:20:25.680
a guy named Ronald Hughes, was most likely

419
00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:27.270
murdered by Manson's family

420
00:20:27.270 --> 00:20:30.180
after Hughes went against Manson

421
00:20:30.180 --> 00:20:31.980
on tactics during the trial.

422
00:20:31.980 --> 00:20:34.700
We're never gonna get a real body count.

423
00:20:34.700 --> 00:20:36.020
<v ->How do you know?</v>

424
00:20:36.020 --> 00:20:38.600
<v ->Well, Vince Bugliosi said because Ronald Hughes</v>

425
00:20:38.600 --> 00:20:40.560
disappeared during the trial

426
00:20:40.560 --> 00:20:43.560
and his body was found decomposed

427
00:20:43.560 --> 00:20:46.880
in the Sespe Hot Springs in Ventura County.

428
00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:48.610
Now that's very, very strange

429
00:20:48.610 --> 00:20:51.718
to have a lawyer disappear during a trial.

430
00:20:51.718 --> 00:20:54.350
<v Debra>By the way, there was a difference of opinion</v>

431
00:20:54.350 --> 00:20:59.350
between him and Leslie Van Houten, who I fight every year.

432
00:21:00.340 --> 00:21:03.130
They say she's the darling and is most likely

433
00:21:03.130 --> 00:21:05.820
to be let out into society at any time.

434
00:21:05.820 --> 00:21:07.246
<v Larry>I interviewed her.</v>

435
00:21:07.246 --> 00:21:08.170
You don't wanna let her out.

436
00:21:08.170 --> 00:21:09.870
<v ->No, she's just as evil now</v>

437
00:21:09.870 --> 00:21:10.930
as she ever was!
<v ->You think so?</v>

438
00:21:10.930 --> 00:21:11.763
<v ->I know so.</v>

439
00:21:11.763 --> 00:21:16.763
<v ->I spoke to the warden, he said she's a changed person.</v>

440
00:21:17.310 --> 00:21:21.400
<v ->I hope so, in a controlled environment Larry.</v>

441
00:21:21.400 --> 00:21:23.100
What happens when they come out

442
00:21:23.100 --> 00:21:27.000
into the free world and have to function?

443
00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:29.400
That's criminality as we know it.

444
00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:30.557
That's a common problem.

445
00:21:30.557 --> 00:21:32.100
<v ->Would you let Leslie out?</v>

446
00:21:32.100 --> 00:21:35.890
<v ->I'm really more interested in the saga of Manson</v>

447
00:21:35.890 --> 00:21:39.707
and the madness that occurred during late 1969.

448
00:21:39.707 --> 00:21:42.760
There are so many elements that people forget about.

449
00:21:42.760 --> 00:21:44.540
The killings were in August,

450
00:21:44.540 --> 00:21:47.810
Manson was not behind bars until December,

451
00:21:47.810 --> 00:21:52.000
so for three months, all of Los Angeles was on edge.

452
00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:54.620
There were these two brutal killings,

453
00:21:54.620 --> 00:21:58.110
the LaBianca killings the night after the Tate killings,

454
00:21:58.110 --> 00:22:01.546
and the city had no idea what was happening.

455
00:22:01.546 --> 00:22:04.340
There was free floating anxiety

456
00:22:04.340 --> 00:22:06.990
and fear, and gun sales went up.

457
00:22:06.990 --> 00:22:10.940
The security state we now live in of gated communities,

458
00:22:10.940 --> 00:22:12.820
this was kind of the beginning of it.

459
00:22:12.820 --> 00:22:17.360
Los Angeles was a much more open suburban place in 1969.

460
00:22:17.360 --> 00:22:19.560
<v ->And you're a big victim's advocate right?</v>

461
00:22:19.560 --> 00:22:20.393
<v ->I am.</v>

462
00:22:20.393 --> 00:22:22.343
I represent under Marcy's Law.

463
00:22:23.260 --> 00:22:27.590
I represent and speak at many first degree murderer's

464
00:22:27.590 --> 00:22:30.560
parole hearings for multiple families.

465
00:22:30.560 --> 00:22:31.810
<v ->Right after the break, we're gonna</v>

466
00:22:31.810 --> 00:22:34.250
talk about this continued fascination

467
00:22:34.250 --> 00:22:37.230
with Charles Manson as we approach

468
00:22:37.230 --> 00:22:41.150
the 50th anniversary of the tragic murders.

469
00:22:41.150 --> 00:22:43.633
Debra and Steve will weigh in on Hollywood's

470
00:22:43.633 --> 00:22:47.720
upcoming Manson related films right after this.

471
00:22:49.796 --> 00:22:51.530
(upbeat tempo)

472
00:22:51.530 --> 00:22:54.030
We're back with Debra Tate and Steve Oney

473
00:22:54.030 --> 00:22:57.700
and this continuing fascination with 1969,

474
00:22:59.140 --> 00:23:01.060
and Hollywood, and Quentin Tarantino's

475
00:23:01.060 --> 00:23:03.208
gonna do a movie and how do you feel about all this

476
00:23:03.208 --> 00:23:07.750
coming out now, movies, and Fox is doing a special,

477
00:23:07.750 --> 00:23:08.750
and how do you feel?

478
00:23:08.750 --> 00:23:11.440
<v ->I hope Tarantino's movie is great.</v>

479
00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:14.360
Now, there's fiction and there's truth

480
00:23:14.360 --> 00:23:18.500
and the Manson story is so fascinating and scary

481
00:23:18.500 --> 00:23:20.620
without elaboration that I think

482
00:23:20.620 --> 00:23:22.550
the non-fiction accounts of it are

483
00:23:22.550 --> 00:23:24.990
ultimately more important than the fictional treatments.

484
00:23:24.990 --> 00:23:28.710
But, it's such a signifying moment in American culture.

485
00:23:28.710 --> 00:23:30.060
It was the end of the 60's.

486
00:23:31.060 --> 00:23:32.993
<v ->Are you fascinated by Manson?</v>

487
00:23:34.030 --> 00:23:37.810
<v ->No, I know entirely too much to be fascinated by it.</v>

488
00:23:37.810 --> 00:23:41.650
What I'm fascinated by is the

489
00:23:41.650 --> 00:23:46.120
perpetuation of the urban myth of Manson.

490
00:23:46.120 --> 00:23:50.801
What he truly was and what the urban myths state he is.

491
00:23:50.801 --> 00:23:53.200
<v ->What is the urban myth?</v>

492
00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:56.215
<v ->That he's a counter-culture hero.</v>

493
00:23:56.215 --> 00:23:57.048
<v ->Hero?</v>

494
00:23:57.048 --> 00:23:58.770
<v ->Yes, believe it or not, you know?</v>

495
00:23:58.770 --> 00:24:02.910
We have now, I was told by a security team,

496
00:24:02.910 --> 00:24:06.300
over 80 cells across America,

497
00:24:06.300 --> 00:24:10.780
there was a young man killed in Orange County, California

498
00:24:10.780 --> 00:24:13.810
a little over a year ago in December

499
00:24:13.810 --> 00:24:18.810
and his murderer, who has not yet stood trial,

500
00:24:19.176 --> 00:24:24.176
is reported to be in one of those Manson-esque cells.

501
00:24:25.870 --> 00:24:27.340
<v ->There are Manson cells?</v>

502
00:24:27.340 --> 00:24:28.990
<v ->Well, there's a myth of Charles Manson</v>

503
00:24:28.990 --> 00:24:31.410
and I agree entirely.
<v ->What's the myth?</v>

504
00:24:31.410 --> 00:24:33.360
<v ->The myth is that he was a counter-cultural hero.</v>

505
00:24:33.360 --> 00:24:35.890
The myth is he was an emblematic figure of the 60's.

506
00:24:35.890 --> 00:24:38.550
And Charles Manson was really a convict,

507
00:24:38.550 --> 00:24:41.260
and a conman, and a brutal killer.

508
00:24:41.260 --> 00:24:44.370
When I first started working on my story for L.A. Magazine,

509
00:24:44.370 --> 00:24:46.320
one of the detectives, Mike McGann,

510
00:24:46.320 --> 00:24:50.290
dumped a container of crime scene photographs

511
00:24:50.290 --> 00:24:53.410
from the Tate crime scene out on a desk like this,

512
00:24:53.410 --> 00:24:56.020
in front of me and said, "Go through this before we talk."

513
00:24:56.020 --> 00:24:57.810
And this were koda-color prints,

514
00:24:57.810 --> 00:25:01.310
of the sort that our vacations were recorded on in the 60's,

515
00:25:01.310 --> 00:25:03.730
of the most horrific blood shed,

516
00:25:03.730 --> 00:25:08.530
overkill, mayhem, I've seen scary pictures before,

517
00:25:08.530 --> 00:25:10.540
but after seeing this, I realized

518
00:25:11.570 --> 00:25:15.050
with Charles Manson, these were monstrous acts

519
00:25:15.050 --> 00:25:17.830
that should never be, we should

520
00:25:17.830 --> 00:25:19.640
never forget where it started.

521
00:25:19.640 --> 00:25:21.930
It started with true violation,

522
00:25:21.930 --> 00:25:23.590
intimate, awful violation.

523
00:25:23.590 --> 00:25:25.080
These were terrible crimes.

524
00:25:25.080 --> 00:25:26.710
<v ->Are you angry at all of this</v>

525
00:25:26.710 --> 00:25:29.190
exploitation now 50 years later?

526
00:25:29.190 --> 00:25:31.130
<v ->Yes, it just fuels the fire.</v>

527
00:25:31.130 --> 00:25:32.530
<v ->All these movies and specials?</v>

528
00:25:32.530 --> 00:25:34.450
<v Debra>Absolutely, absolutely.</v>

529
00:25:34.450 --> 00:25:39.320
But, I can't necessarily stop it or control it.

530
00:25:39.320 --> 00:25:40.880
It's going to go, I mean,

531
00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:42.975
if I had all the money in the world,

532
00:25:42.975 --> 00:25:46.160
I could put law suits on people

533
00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:48.910
because I own Sharon's intellectual license.

534
00:25:48.910 --> 00:25:52.363
However, you have to pick your battles.

535
00:25:53.790 --> 00:25:56.790
People have them as romantic individuals

536
00:25:56.790 --> 00:26:00.061
and they were really grungy, dumpster diving,

537
00:26:00.061 --> 00:26:05.061
filthy, stinky, not terribly attractive.

538
00:26:05.710 --> 00:26:10.710
I personally don't see what the draw was.

539
00:26:11.030 --> 00:26:14.370
<v ->Do you understand as a journalist Steve,</v>

540
00:26:14.370 --> 00:26:16.130
the fascination with this story?

541
00:26:16.130 --> 00:26:17.840
<v ->Oh, I understand very much</v>

542
00:26:17.840 --> 00:26:19.980
and this is where we slightly differ.

543
00:26:19.980 --> 00:26:22.770
I think the Tate, LaBianca killings

544
00:26:22.770 --> 00:26:25.624
and then the circus like atmosphere of the trial

545
00:26:25.624 --> 00:26:29.000
and the aftermath with characters is

546
00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:33.490
a strange and squeaky Fromm who tried to shoot Gerald Ford.

547
00:26:33.490 --> 00:26:37.080
I think it was a defining moment in American culture.

548
00:26:37.080 --> 00:26:41.080
And I think many things glommed onto it,

549
00:26:41.080 --> 00:26:43.130
but I think it's eternally fascinating.

550
00:26:43.130 --> 00:26:46.420
I think there was a world before the Manson killings

551
00:26:46.420 --> 00:26:48.500
and there was a world after the Manson killings.

552
00:26:48.500 --> 00:26:51.440
<v ->This is when the country turned against Vietnam right?</v>

553
00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:52.810
<v ->Right and the 60's ended,</v>

554
00:26:52.810 --> 00:26:54.740
Joan Didion wrote famously in her book,

555
00:26:54.740 --> 00:26:57.560
The White Album, that on the morning the call

556
00:26:57.560 --> 00:27:00.940
came in from the crime at Cielo, the 60's ended.

557
00:27:00.940 --> 00:27:03.730
And I think there's a case to be made for that.

558
00:27:03.730 --> 00:27:05.883
<v ->What do you remember most about Sharon?</v>

559
00:27:07.750 --> 00:27:11.090
<v ->Sharon was very light in spirit.</v>

560
00:27:11.090 --> 00:27:15.380
She was just about the sweetest, kindest person

561
00:27:15.380 --> 00:27:17.790
that you could ever wanna meet.

562
00:27:17.790 --> 00:27:20.430
She was also beautiful physically

563
00:27:20.430 --> 00:27:23.810
and those two factors don't normally go together.

564
00:27:23.810 --> 00:27:26.950
Her work ethic was over the moon.

565
00:27:26.950 --> 00:27:28.550
<v ->Did you like her husband?</v>

566
00:27:28.550 --> 00:27:29.940
<v ->I actually do.</v>

567
00:27:29.940 --> 00:27:32.000
I did and I still do.

568
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:33.460
We have to remember Larry, that

569
00:27:33.460 --> 00:27:37.110
that was my sister's husband and she loved him.

570
00:27:37.110 --> 00:27:42.110
And I grew to know him and I still do know him.

571
00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:45.440
I know what he was then, I know what he is now.

572
00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:48.120
<v ->How did Manson get away with all this</v>

573
00:27:48.120 --> 00:27:51.530
for so long, before being apprehended?

574
00:27:51.530 --> 00:27:54.100
You're saying all these other murders and everything?

575
00:27:54.100 --> 00:27:57.920
<v ->He was a psychopath, he was a conman,</v>

576
00:27:57.920 --> 00:28:01.710
he was a manipulator and a user.

577
00:28:01.710 --> 00:28:05.360
I mean remember, he was born out of wedlock.

578
00:28:05.360 --> 00:28:08.850
The name on his birth certificate was No Name Maddox.

579
00:28:08.850 --> 00:28:10.220
He had no name.

580
00:28:10.220 --> 00:28:12.640
And his mother was dating someone named Manson,

581
00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:15.090
he took the Manson name.

582
00:28:15.090 --> 00:28:17.550
By the time he went to San Francisco

583
00:28:17.550 --> 00:28:19.160
and started forming the family,

584
00:28:19.160 --> 00:28:21.380
he'd spent half his life in prison.

585
00:28:21.380 --> 00:28:23.250
Federal prisons, state prisons,

586
00:28:23.250 --> 00:28:26.830
he was a multi-time loser, conman

587
00:28:26.830 --> 00:28:29.440
and manipulator, and very smart.

588
00:28:29.440 --> 00:28:31.980
Manson was clever, cunning,

589
00:28:31.980 --> 00:28:34.520
and he knew how to get people to do things for him.

590
00:28:34.520 --> 00:28:37.980
He was a manipulator and in the 60's,

591
00:28:37.980 --> 00:28:41.813
when kids had lost some of their sense of values,

592
00:28:41.813 --> 00:28:44.490
and some of their self-discipline,

593
00:28:44.490 --> 00:28:47.840
Manson was very, it was easy pickings for him.

594
00:28:47.840 --> 00:28:49.440
<v ->I was one of those kids.</v>

595
00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:52.250
And those girls are just two years older than myself,

596
00:28:52.250 --> 00:28:54.280
and I was living in Sausalito

597
00:28:54.280 --> 00:28:57.380
and strolling the streets of Haight-Ashbury,

598
00:28:57.380 --> 00:29:02.300
and nobody could get me to do what those people did.

599
00:29:02.300 --> 00:29:03.140
<v Steve>But that's the difference...</v>

600
00:29:03.140 --> 00:29:04.820
<v ->They, themselves are sociopathic.</v>

601
00:29:04.820 --> 00:29:06.110
<v ->If he had that ability,</v>

602
00:29:06.110 --> 00:29:07.990
he could've been using it for good.

603
00:29:07.990 --> 00:29:08.823
<v ->Yes he could.</v>

604
00:29:08.823 --> 00:29:12.493
<v ->Yes, but he was twisted early.</v>

605
00:29:14.210 --> 00:29:15.680
<v ->By choice.</v>

606
00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:16.710
<v ->Thank you both, very fascinating.</v>

607
00:29:16.710 --> 00:29:17.886
Debra.
<v ->Thank you Larry.</v>

608
00:29:17.886 --> 00:29:19.099
<v Larry>Good seeing you again.</v>

609
00:29:19.099 --> 00:29:19.932
<v ->Anytime.</v>

610
00:29:19.932 --> 00:29:20.765
<v ->Thanks Larry.</v>
<v ->Thank you so much.</v>

611
00:29:20.765 --> 00:29:21.770
<v ->I wanted to thank both our guests,</v>

612
00:29:21.770 --> 00:29:24.440
Debra Tate and Steve Oney for joining me on

613
00:29:24.440 --> 00:29:26.730
this special edition of Larry King Now.

614
00:29:26.730 --> 00:29:29.060 line:15% 
Now and as always, you can follow me

615
00:29:29.060 --> 00:29:32.248 line:15% 
on Twitter at Kings Things, I'll see you next time.

616
00:29:32.248 --> 00:29:34.831
(upbeat tempo)